If you ever question the validity of a God who would suffer, ponder this;

I could never myself believe in God, if it were not for the cross. The only God I believe in is the One Nietzsche ridiculed as “God on the cross.” In the real world of pain, how could one worship a God who was immune to it? ... [The God I worship is] that lonely, twisted, tortured figure on the cross, nails through hands and feet, back lacerated, limbs wrenched, brow bleeding from thorn-pricks, mouth dry and intolerably thirsty, plunged in God-forsaken darkness. That is the God for me! He laid aside his immunity to pain. He entered our world of flesh and blood, tears and death. He suffered for us. … There is still a question mark against human suffering, but over it we … stamp another mark, the cross, which symbolizes divine suffering.

--John R.W. Stott, in his book The Cross of Christ

Tim Keller quote

"A looming crisis for all American evangelical churches is that they cannot thrive outside of the shrinking enclaves of conservative and traditional people and culture. We have not created the new ministry and communication... models that will flourish and grow in the coming post-Christian very secular Western world. Our vision should be to develop campus ministries, new churches, Christian education/discipleship systems that are effective in those fields in North America." - Tim Keller

A conversation about the article "The Coming Evangelical Collapse"

I recently read this article, which has made it's rounds not only in the Christian world, but also in several political areas including the Hugh Hewitt show and the Drudge Report. I shared it with my pastor and asked him for his take on it. Here's the email conversation we had:

Hey Jim,

I read this article earlier this week and immediately thought of your own predictions of our Christian future. I'd like to hear your take on what this article says. It seems pretty relevant and "prophetic" in a sense. It's been making its rounds pretty rapidly. I'm hearing it referenced on secular talk radio (Hugh Hewitt) and seeing it on political websites (Drudge).

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Hi John,

Thanks for passing along to me this excellent article. I had not seen it yet, but Olsie came across it yesterday and read it to Juli. The guy sounds like an echo. Although I have my doubts about some of his predictions (he agrees some will prove wrong), I think he is spot-on about evangelicalism coming unglued and agree in the main with his analysis of the reasons. One of the biggest causes, however, he slides by. It is not only that so-called evangelicals today are abysmally ignorant of their faith, but a huge part of the problem (related to the former) is that only a minority are radically living it. The difference between those 'out there' and those 'in here' is not obvious. Morally and ethically, the lines are too blurred.

Anyway, I personally think the 'collapse' is already in motion.

Thanks again, John . Will reprint this article for staff et al.
Jim

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Thanks Jim. I think you're right about the not living it aspect, but why do you suppose so many aren't? I think it's because of the lack of sound doctrinal preaching and the seeker sensitivity of the more prominent churches (Rick Warren, Joel Osteen etc).

I actually think that the church universal won't collapse (the gates of hell will not prevail, right?) but the pretenders will be sifted out as things get tougher. To me, this article points to a purifying of the church, something that is long overdue from my human perspective. It encourages me to some degree, tho I have to admit I worry for my children what kind of world they'll grow up in. I worry about a return of Nero ... tho the persecution will be more legal than physical, I imagine (especially with the new administration). I have to remind myself to lean on the sovereignty of God.

Thanks again for looking that article over and getting back with me.

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Right on all counts, I think, John. The answer to the underlying rot is complex.
First, the pervasiveness of 'easy believism'. It is and has been rampant in evangelical churches. Otherwise known as 'cheap grace' wherein people believe that because we are not saved by works, but by grace, they are free to live as they please. They do not understand that genuine faith is an obedient faith...it is not faith plus works, but a grateful faith that works (out of love).

Along with that goes pastors and church leaders who are more interested in building empires than making disciples, growing churches than growing people into conformity to Christ. They are totally Americanized in the sense that it is all about the marks of 'success' (usually gauged in statistical terms). So we spent all our leadership energies building and massaging the numbers rather than building up the saints.
The outcome of that is we have become so successful as religious entrepreneurs that we are skillful at getting the world into the church, but powerless in getting the world out of the church.
Then, too, our people are ignorant because our pastors and leaders not only are driven by a sorry value system, but, as fish rot from the top, pastors as a whole are not a whole lot ahead of their flocks in their own grasp of theology and biblical understand. They may use the Bible but they are generally speaking utterly inept at teaching it in meaningful way.
Underlying that liability is the fact that (I would guess) not even half (being generous) of the men who occupy our pulpits have ever known the call of God. I base that assessment on long experience and knowing the evidences of God's call. Besides, except for a precious few, the seminaries (and Bible colleges) are unfit for their task. Their mission is spelled S-U-R-V-I-V-A-L and finances trump convictions as they try to spread their tent pegs as wide and possible. On top of that, way too many of their teachers are a waste and do their students far more damage than good. I see it all as a sign of the judgment of God on the American church. Thank God for the few still drawing their lines in the right places.

Another big subverter (as I ramble on) is our cultural prosperity and influence. Prosperity (and political power) historically have always deadened and corrupted the saints and their institutions more than persecution. See Deuteronomy 8 where Moses expressed his fear of their prosperity in the land---one well based as it turned out.

Well, I could go on and on but these are some of the factors in play in our corruption and beginnings of implosion. We are being marginalized fast. Our enemies are coming out of the closet and getting bolder and bolder in their hostility. I am not looking forward to the hard times, but I fear we need it and it will help to some extent to clear the decks and separate hard core believers from all these make believers and militant churches from merely social or clubby churches that can't draw blood, only a largely carnal crowd.

Jim

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Looks like we're cut from the same bolt, Jim. This last reply is a home run. Do you mind if I "publish" this conversation in my blog? It's pretty insightful.

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That's OK, John. However, not very well written. Just shot it off 'stream of consciousness', you know. Jim

For a guy who just throws this off his 'stream of consciousness', you've got to admit the wisdom shows. He certainly has a grasp on the times we live in (much like Mike Spencer who wrote the article that spawned this conversation). I think the best line in here is this one:

"The outcome of that is we have become so successful as religious entrepreneurs that we are skillful at getting the world into the church, but powerless in getting the world out of the church."

He's right on the money. To be clear (for my Arminian brethren :P) the first "world" is unbelievers, while the second "world" is the world system.

Anyway, I thought someone might enjoy another supporting view

My friend, Tara's story

I just learned how to create my own video player of all my videos!

Here they are!



For all two of you who ever visit my site, this is a bit of my life.

God bless!